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erus BioSciences(CHRS) - 2025 Q4 - Earnings Call Transcript
2026-03-09 21:30
Financial Data and Key Metrics Changes - Coherus Oncology reported LOQTORZI net revenue of $40.8 million for the full year 2025, a 113% increase from $19.1 million in 2024 [27] - The company reduced its secured and convertible debt by over 90% from $480 million to $38.8 million by the end of 2025 [3][32] - SG&A expenses decreased to $23.6 million in Q4 2025 from $29.6 million in Q4 2024, marking the fourth consecutive quarter of flat or declining expenses [36] Business Line Data and Key Metrics Changes - LOQTORZI sales more than doubled in 2025 compared to 2024, with Q4 net revenue reaching $12.4 million, an 11% growth over Q3 [27][31] - The company launched LOQTORZI in 2024, targeting a $250 million addressable market for recurrent, locally advanced, or metastatic Nasopharyngeal Carcinoma [4] Market Data and Key Metrics Changes - The NCCN guidelines for NPC were updated in late 2024, positioning LOQTORZI as the only preferred treatment for recurrent and metastatic NPC, which stimulated growth in 2025 [28] - The company anticipates achieving peak market share of approximately 70% in the NPC market by 2028, equating to $175 million in annualized revenues [6][31] Company Strategy and Development Direction - Coherus has transitioned to focus on innovative oncology, particularly in overcoming immune resistance in cancer, following the acquisition of Surface Oncology [3] - The company aims to leverage LOQTORZI as a revenue generator while advancing its pipeline products, including tagmokitug and Casdozokitug, which are positioned for broad clinical utility [5][9] - Strategic partnerships, such as the collaboration with Johnson & Johnson, are seen as key to unlocking value and expanding market opportunities [10] Management's Comments on Operating Environment and Future Outlook - Management expressed confidence in LOQTORZI's growth due to its unique position in the market and the compelling survival data presented at ESMO Asia [29] - The company is focused on educating oncologists about the benefits of LOQTORZI, particularly in light of new survival data that shows significant advantages over chemotherapy alone [30] - Management believes that the financial strategy, including reduced debt and growing revenues, positions the company well for future growth [40] Other Important Information - The company has made significant investments in commercial infrastructure to support LOQTORZI's growth, including expanding its sales force and enhancing data analytics capabilities [30] - Coherus is on track for initial data readouts from its clinical programs in mid-2026, which will inform future development strategies [18][26] Q&A Session Summary Question: Can you provide more color on the dynamic between new patient starts and repeat patients in 2025? - Approximately 25% of the business came from new patients in 2025, with expectations that this mix will shift slightly more towards new patients in the future [45] Question: What is the promotional sensitivity of LOQTORZI? - LOQTORZI is highly promotion sensitive, requiring continuous reminders to physicians about its benefits due to the rarity of NPC cases [48] Question: Can you discuss the additional investments in commercial infrastructure? - The company has expanded its field force by 15% and added inside sales representatives to target tier 2 accounts, along with investments in IT infrastructure to capture patient opportunities [49][50] Question: What are the plans for exploring a triple combination with TAGMO? - The initial step will be to evaluate the combination of tagmokitug and pasritamig before considering additional combinations [55] Question: How will data from ongoing trials be disclosed? - Data will be reported as it matures, either at congresses or through corporate disclosures, depending on the timing of patient accrual and scans [61] Question: What is the maturation timeline for the Casdozokitug frontline HCC study? - The maturation timeline is expected to be between 6 to 12 months, with ongoing data collection to inform future reports [68]
Stereotaxis(STXS) - 2025 Q4 - Earnings Call Transcript
2026-03-09 21:30
Financial Data and Key Metrics Changes - Revenue for Q4 2025 totaled $8.6 million, a 36% increase from $6.3 million in Q4 2024 [21] - Full year revenue for 2025 was $32.4 million, compared to $26.9 million in 2024 [21] - Gross margin for Q4 and full year 2025 was approximately 50% and 53% respectively [22] - Operating loss for Q4 2025 was $5.6 million, compared to $7.6 million in Q4 2024 [23] Business Line Data and Key Metrics Changes - System revenue for Q4 2025 was $3.3 million, up from $1.4 million in the prior year [21] - Recurring revenue for Q4 2025 was $5.3 million, down from $9.4 million in Q4 2024 [21] - Full year system revenue was $10.2 million, compared to $8.6 million in the prior year [21] - Full year recurring revenue was $22.2 million, up from $18.3 million in the prior year [22] Market Data and Key Metrics Changes - The electrophysiology (EP) market is projected to grow from over $13 billion to $20 billion by 2030 [7] - The company views the congenital heart disease, pediatrics, and ventricular tachycardia market as a $2 billion opportunity [8] Company Strategy and Development Direction - The company aims to pioneer robotics in minimally invasive endovascular surgery, focusing on making its robot widely available and building an ecosystem of catheters [6] - The strategy includes four pillars: rapid installation of robots, building a catheter ecosystem, leveraging core technology for broader applications, and establishing a digital backbone [6] - The company plans to demonstrate the real-world value of GenesisX by establishing at least five active programs [12] Management's Comments on Operating Environment and Future Outlook - Management expects to deliver double-digit revenue growth in 2026, with quarterly revenue expected to ramp above $10 million in the latter half of the year [26] - The company anticipates a working capital benefit to cash flow in 2026 after significant investment in working capital in 2025 [27] - Management is confident in overcoming manufacturing challenges and is excited about the progress being made [12] Other Important Information - The company achieved regulatory approvals for the GenesisX robot and associated catheters in the U.S. and Europe [7] - Manufacturing challenges have been a focus, with plans to scale production of catheters significantly throughout the year [12] Q&A Session Summary Question: What is the goal of five GenesisX programs? - The company expects Genesis sales orders to continue at a similar pace as previous years, with mid-single digit numbers of Genesis systems sold annually [31] Question: What is included in the $3+ million revenue goal for Synchrony in 2026? - The revenue guidance focuses on capital sales of Synchrony systems, with several hospitals expected to standardize their EP labs on Synchrony [34] Question: How are catheters allocated to specific accounts given manufacturing constraints? - The company is managing demand and working through administrative efforts to ensure that as manufacturing ramps, they can meet the demand for MAGiC catheters [40] Question: What is the path to launching MAGiC with pulsed field ablation? - The company has conducted compatibility testing and is compiling a dossier for review by the EU notified body [46] Question: What is the expected operating expense for 2026? - The company expects operating expenses to remain stable year-over-year, with adjusted operating expenses projected to stay under $30 million [75]
iBio (NYSEAM:IBIO) 2026 Conference Transcript
2026-03-09 21:22
Summary of iBio Conference Call Company Overview - **Company**: iBio (NYSEAM:IBIO) - **Industry**: Biotechnology, specifically focusing on cardiometabolic diseases and obesity treatments Key Points and Arguments Long-term Vision - iBio pivoted into the cardiometabolic space two years ago, focusing on treatments that follow GLP-1s, which are becoming a cornerstone in obesity treatment. The company aims to address unmet needs in patient care within this space [7][8] Value Inflection Points - Upcoming milestones include: - External data from Wave and Arrowhead - Filing for Activin E by the end of the year, with potential interim data by the end of next year - Progress on bispecific myostatin activin A program, expected to enter the clinic in the second half of next year - Myostatin program acceptance in Australia, with first patient dosing anticipated in Q3 [12][12][12] IBIO-610 (Activin E Antibody) - The antibody targets the Activin E pathway at the protein level in blood, differentiating it from competitors focusing on gene-level interventions [25] - Aiming for near-complete inhibition of the pathway, which may lead to better efficacy compared to competitors [26] - Safety profile is expected to be favorable due to the extensive history of antibody use [29] - Designed for long-acting subcutaneous administration, with a half-life of approximately 100 days in humans [33] Competitive Landscape - iBio is learning from competitors' data on visceral fat and liver fat reductions, which may inform their trial designs and patient populations [35][36] - The company is particularly interested in inflammation biomarkers, which could link to cardiovascular disease protection [40][41] Regulatory Considerations - The company is cautious about regulatory pathways, emphasizing the need for endpoints that reflect real patient benefits rather than just weight loss [44][45] Patient Populations - Targeting a broad range of patients, including those with type 2 diabetes, liver fibrosis, and obstructive sleep apnea [51][52] - The potential for the drug to address weight maintenance in obesity is highlighted as a significant unmet need [49] Pipeline and Future Indications - iBio is developing a bispecific antibody targeting myostatin, GDF11, and activin A, which may address multi-organ diseases like heart failure with preserved ejection fraction [58][59] - The company is not focused on rare diseases but is open to partnerships for those indications [62] Financial Overview - iBio has cash reserves extending into Q1 2028, prioritizing the development of Activin E, bispecific, and myostatin programs [71] - Current market cap is approximately $350 million, with a fully diluted cap closer to $500 million [71] Partnership Strategy - iBio is considering partnerships for larger indications like obesity, while smaller indications may be developed independently [73] - The company is selective in partnerships, aiming to maximize shareholder value [74] Underappreciated Aspects - The team, platform, and persistence are highlighted as key strengths that differentiate iBio in the competitive landscape [77] Additional Important Content - The integration of AI in drug discovery is emphasized, allowing for the development of more effective and manufacturable antibodies [66][68] - The company is focused on optimizing both antibodies and antigens, which sets it apart from competitors [67][68]
Protagonist Therapeutics (NasdaqGM:PTGX) 2026 Conference Transcript
2026-03-09 21:22
Protagonist Therapeutics Conference Call Summary Company Overview - **Company**: Protagonist Therapeutics (NasdaqGM:PTGX) - **Industry**: Biotechnology, specifically focused on peptide technology for drug development Key Points and Arguments 2026 Outlook - Protagonist Therapeutics is anticipating a significant year in 2026 with two potential FDA approvals for partnered products and ongoing data from its early pipeline [3][4] - The company has a strong financial position, funding new efforts with its own resources and maintaining a surplus cash balance, which will be used to maximize shareholder value [4] Product Pipeline - **IL-23 Receptor Antagonist**: Partnered with Johnson & Johnson (J&J), NDA filed in July 2025, with expected approval in Q3 2026 [4][5] - **Rusfertide (Hepcidin Mimetic)**: Partnered with Takeda, received priority review with NDA filed by the end of 2025, also expected approval in Q3 2026 [5][6] - The partnership with Takeda is structured as a 50-50 co-development and co-commercialization agreement, with an option for Protagonist to opt-in for a $400 million milestone payment [6][28] Market Potential - The oral IL-23 blocker is the first of its kind, with significant market potential as J&J's research indicates that over 75% of patients currently on injectables would switch to an oral option [14][15] - The company believes that the oral formulation could not only capture market share from injectables but also create a new market segment [15] Clinical Data and Efficacy - The company reported a 30% clinical remission rate in ulcerative colitis from phase two studies, indicating strong efficacy [17] - The mechanism of action targets the IL-23 receptor, which is overexpressed in gastrointestinal tissues, potentially leading to better outcomes in inflammatory bowel disease compared to existing treatments [19][20] Future Developments - Protagonist is advancing multiple assets, including oral IL-17 and oral hepcidin candidates, with phase one studies expected to yield important data [7][8][36] - The oral IL-17 candidate (PN-881) aims to achieve high potency and specificity, with a focus on both A and F isoforms, which is critical for efficacy in treating conditions like psoriasis [38][39] Strategic Considerations - The company is considering the balance between opting out of the rusfertide partnership for a substantial upfront payment versus co-promoting the drug, weighing the benefits of financial security against potential long-term gains [28][30] - Protagonist is also exploring the development of a franchise around IL-17 compounds, with a focus on psoriasis and potentially other indications [50][52] Competitive Landscape - The company acknowledges the competitive nature of the obesity and metabolic disease space, with plans to differentiate its oral triple G agonist from existing injectable options [54][55] - Protagonist aims to achieve both significant weight loss and improved safety profiles, positioning its products as versatile options for patients [59][60] Additional Important Insights - The company is committed to maintaining confidentiality around clinical data until strategic decisions are made, with plans to share findings at medical conferences rather than immediately [43] - Protagonist's approach to drug development emphasizes the advantages of peptides over small molecules, particularly in terms of potency and specificity [49] This summary encapsulates the key insights from the Protagonist Therapeutics conference call, highlighting the company's strategic direction, product pipeline, and market potential within the biotechnology sector.
Axsome Therapeutics (NasdaqGM:AXSM) 2026 Conference Transcript
2026-03-09 21:22
Axsome Therapeutics Conference Call Summary Company Overview - **Company**: Axsome Therapeutics (NasdaqGM:AXSM) - **Date**: March 09, 2026 - **Key Speakers**: Mark Jacobson (COO), Nick Pizzie (CFO) Key Points Auvelity Performance and Strategy - Auvelity annualized revenue at the end of 2025 was just over **$600 million**, marking its third full year since launch in 2022, outperforming peers in the market [6][7] - The sales force expanded from **160** to **300** representatives in 2025, with plans to double to **600** in 2026, focusing on Major Depressive Disorder (MDD) and the anticipated approval for Agitation in Alzheimer’s Disease (ADA) [7][8] - Peak sales projections for Auvelity are estimated between **$1 billion** to **$3 billion** for MDD and **$1.5 billion** to **$3 billion** for ADA [7] - Market access has improved to **86%** coverage of total lives, with **100%** coverage in the government channel and **78%** on the commercial side [21][22] - Direct-to-consumer (DTC) advertising began in September 2025, with adjustments made based on learnings from the initial campaign [18][19] Clinical and Market Dynamics - Auvelity's clinical profile shows a distinct safety and tolerability profile, with over **50%** of prescriptions now coming from first and second-line treatments [8][9] - The product is gaining traction in primary care, with about **33%** of scripts originating from this sector [9] - The company is reallocating resources from DTC to expand the sales team, anticipating that this will enhance the effectiveness of future DTC campaigns [18][19] Upcoming Indications and Trials - The PDUFA date for ADA is set for **April 30, 2026**, with preparations underway for potential FDA approval [23][24] - Axsome is also exploring a smoking cessation indication for Auvelity, with clinical operations set to begin soon [30][32] Symbravo Launch - Symbravo is performing well in the migraine space, with a focus on later-line treatment due to payer management [36][37] - The sales force for Symbravo is currently **100 reps**, with a strategy to refine the launch based on early utilization data [40][41] - Market access for Symbravo is around **50%** covered lives, with recent contracts signed to improve access [45] Sunosi Growth - Sunosi has seen a **40%** year-over-year growth, supported by a dedicated team of **70 reps** [55][57] - The company is optimistic about further accelerating revenue through four indications currently in development [57] AXS-14 and AXS-17 Developments - AXS-14 (esreboxetine) is targeting the fibromyalgia market, with a new phase 3 trial launched after a previous Refuse to File due to trial design issues [87][89] - AXS-17 is a new product for epilepsy, with plans for phase 2 enabling work in 2026, focusing on unmet needs in the epilepsy space [106][107] AXS-12 Submission - AXS-12, targeting narcolepsy with a focus on cataplexy, is at the NDA stage, with submission expected soon [121] Additional Insights - The company is strategically focusing on expanding its pipeline and market presence while addressing regulatory feedback to enhance product approvals [89][90] - There is a strong emphasis on understanding market dynamics and patient needs to drive product utilization and acceptance [41][57]
Arvinas (NasdaqGS:ARVN) 2026 Conference Transcript
2026-03-09 21:22
Summary of Arvinas Conference Call Company Overview - **Company**: Arvinas (NasdaqGS:ARVN) - **Focus**: Development of PROTAC degraders, with four programs currently in phase one across various disease areas [5][6] Key Programs and Developments - **Pipeline**: - **Vepdegestrant**: Positive pivotal phase trial readout for ER degrader [6] - **Bavdegalutamide**: Outlicensed to Novartis, providing a strong foundation for future growth [6] - **ARV-102**: LRRK2 degrader targeting neurodegeneration, showing promise in reducing LRRK2 levels in cerebrospinal fluid [39][40] - **ARV-806**: KRAS G12D degrader for solid tumors, with rapid enrollment in clinical trials [128] - **ARV-393**: BCL6 degrader in phase 1 studies for B-cell and T-cell lymphomas, showing early responses [142][143] - **ARV-027**: Polyglutamine repeat AR degrader for Kennedy's disease, recently started in clinical trials [145] - **ARV-6723**: HPK1 degrader planned for future clinical use [146] Competitive Advantages - **PROTAC Technology**: - Allows for iterative degradation, overcoming resistance mechanisms that traditional inhibitors face [27][28] - Offers oral bioavailability and the ability to cross the blood-brain barrier, which is advantageous for treating neurodegenerative diseases [28] - **Differentiation**: Each program is focused on demonstrating unique benefits over existing therapies, such as improved efficacy and reduced resistance [20][21] Market Position and Strategy - **Commercialization**: Arvinas is seeking a new partner for the commercialization of vepdegestrant while focusing resources on earlier pipeline assets [18][19] - **Combination Therapies**: Emphasis on developing combination strategies, particularly for oncology applications, to enhance treatment efficacy [139] Clinical Insights - **LRRK2 and Neurodegeneration**: - Targeting LRRK2 is crucial for diseases like Parkinson's and progressive supranuclear palsy, with a goal to reduce LRRK2 levels by 50% to halt disease progression [81][82] - Preclinical data supports the potential for ARV-102 to impact pathologic proteins associated with these diseases [41][42] - **KRAS G12D**: - The ARV-806 program aims to demonstrate superior efficacy compared to existing inhibitors, with a focus on overcoming compensatory upregulation seen in traditional therapies [119][120] Upcoming Milestones - **Data Releases**: Anticipated data from ongoing trials, including results from ARV-102 in Parkinson's disease patients and updates on ARV-806 [68][128] - **Phase 1b Trial**: Plans to initiate a phase 1b trial for progressive supranuclear palsy by mid-year [68] Conclusion - Arvinas is positioned as a leader in the development of PROTAC degraders, with a robust pipeline and strategic focus on differentiation and combination therapies. The company is actively pursuing partnerships and preparing for significant clinical data releases in the near future.
Adagene (NasdaqGM:ADAG) 2026 Conference Transcript
2026-03-09 21:22
Summary of Adagene Conference Call Company Overview - **Company**: Adagene (NasdaqGM:ADAG) - **Event**: 2026 Conference on March 09, 2026 - **Key Speaker**: Mickael Chane-Du, Chief Strategy Officer Core Points and Arguments Product Differentiation - **Lead Program**: ADG126 (Muzastotug), a next-generation masked conditional CTLA-4 antagonist - **Differentiation Factors**: 1. **Unique Backbone**: ADG126 binds to a different epitope than ipilimumab, resulting in a significantly stronger antibody-drug conjugate (ADC) with a potency believed to be 10x higher than ipilimumab [4][10] 2. **Proprietary Masking Technology**: Utilizes SafeBody, a protease-sensitive peptide, which offers better masking efficiency compared to competitors like Exelixis [4][5] Clinical Data and Efficacy - **MSS CRC (Microsatellite Stable Colorectal Cancer)**: - Standard care yields poor outcomes with response rates in the mid-single digits and median overall survival (OS) in the low teens [13] - ADG126 combined with pembrolizumab shows a confirmed response rate between 15% and 29%, significantly higher than the 2.5% response rate for nivolumab and ipilimumab in similar populations [17][14] - The higher the dose, the better the response rate, with ongoing studies showing a dose-dependent response profile [20][36] Safety and Tolerability - **Adverse Events**: Low incidence of grade 3 treatment-related adverse events (<10%) and no grade 4 or 5 events reported [10] - **Durability of Response**: Emphasis on the importance of durability in treatment outcomes, with ongoing follow-up data expected to provide insights into long-term survival benefits [34][36] Future Updates and Trials - Upcoming data updates expected to provide further insights into the efficacy and safety of ADG126 in combination with pembrolizumab in late-line MSS CRC [22][36] - Plans to present data from a randomized study involving ADG126 in combination with atezolizumab and bevacizumab for hepatocellular carcinoma (HCC) [77][81] Competitive Landscape - Comparison with other treatments, such as the zanzelitinib and atezolizumab combination, which has shown a response rate of around 5-9% [46][49] - ADG126's confirmed response rate at higher doses is close to 30%, indicating a competitive edge [49] Collaborations and Partnerships - Recent collaboration with Sanofi, including a $25 million equity investment and a phase 1/2 trial evaluating ADG126 combined with Sanofi's bispecific PD-1/IL-15 [99][100] - Ongoing collaboration with Exelixis to apply SafeBody technology to various biologics [106] Additional Research and Development - Exploration of ADG126's potential in other tumor types beyond MSS CRC, including earlier lines of therapy and patients with liver metastasis [96][98] - Development of T-cell engagers targeting HER2 and CD20, with a focus on reducing cytokine release syndrome [110][111] Important but Overlooked Content - The emphasis on the balance between efficacy and safety in dosing strategies, particularly in the context of maintaining long-term treatment benefits [41][43] - The potential for ADG126 to be a safer CTLA-4 option that can be combined with various regimens, enhancing its applicability in immuno-oncology [59][60]
Signet Jewelers (NYSE:SIG) 2026 Conference Transcript
2026-03-09 21:17
Summary of Signet Jewelers (NYSE: SIG) 2026 Conference Call Company Overview - **Company**: Signet Jewelers - **Ticker**: NYSE: SIG - **Conference Date**: March 09, 2026 Key Points Industry Performance - The jewelry industry experienced a strong holiday season, particularly during the peak days leading up to Christmas, which were critical for sales performance [4][3] - There was a sequential improvement in sales month by month during the quarter, despite initial consumer hesitance in November due to external pressures [3][4] Financial Highlights - Preliminary results for Q4 indicate positive comparable sales (comps) during the holiday season, with a strong performance continuing into January [4][5] - The company generated over $500 million in free cash flow, representing a 20% year-over-year increase, with relatively flat inventory levels [7][5] - Operating income was delivered at the high end of guidance, despite some margin decline due to increased promotional activity [5][6] Consumer Behavior Insights - The company operates two distinct businesses: fine jewelry year-round and a gift-giving business during the holiday season [14][16] - Consumers showed a willingness to trade up for higher quality items, particularly in the $200-$1,000 price range, while lower price points faced challenges [16][17] - The promotional environment was more competitive, particularly affecting lower and middle-income consumers [17][5] Brand Performance - Core brands such as Kay, Zales, and Jared returned to positive comps for the first time since fiscal year 2022, with a 3% increase in these businesses [7][6] - Blue Nile showed positive performance, while James Allen continued to be a drag on overall results [36][38] - Zales experienced a pullback in Q4, attributed to a focus on self-purchase rather than gift-giving [39][40] Strategic Priorities - The company plans to focus on brand differentiation and marketing efforts in 2026, with an emphasis on enhancing customer experience [96][97] - There is a strategic review of underperforming brands, with potential for turnaround plans or divestitures [82][83] - The company is not prioritizing M&A but is focused on organic investments, particularly in core brands [119][120] Tariff and Commodity Management - The company has navigated tariff changes effectively, with a focus on supply chain flexibility and resetting supplier agreements [61][62] - Gold and silver prices have increased, and the company is exploring alternative materials to manage costs [69][70] - The impact of tariffs and commodity costs will continue to be monitored, with expectations of some lumpiness in gross margins in the first half of the year [137][138] Future Outlook - The company anticipates a resilient consumer base, despite potential economic pressures, and is preparing for a dynamic environment in 2026 [75][78] - There is a focus on leveraging insights from key selling periods like Valentine's Day to inform strategies for Mother's Day and other peak periods [46][48] - The company aims to maintain a healthy fleet of stores while considering strategic pruning where necessary [122][124] Conclusion - Signet Jewelers is positioned to capitalize on its core brands and consumer trends while navigating external challenges such as tariffs and commodity prices. The focus on brand differentiation and customer experience is expected to drive growth in 2026.
HPE(HPE) - 2026 Q1 - Earnings Call Presentation
2026-03-09 21:00
HPE Q 1 FY2 6 Earnings March 9, 2026 1 Forward -looking statements This presentation contains forward -looking statements within the meaning of the safe harbor provisions of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995 . Such statements involve risks, uncertainties, and assumptions . If the risks or uncertainties ever materialize or the assumptions prove incorrect, the results of Hewlett Packard Enterprise Company and its consolidated subsidiaries ("Hewlett Packard Enterprise") may differ materially ...
Repay (RPAY) - 2025 Q4 - Earnings Call Presentation
2026-03-09 21:00
Q4 2025 Earnings Supplement March 2026 Disclaimer 1 Exhibit 99.2 Repay Holdings Corporation ("REPAY" or the "Company") is required to file annual, quarterly and current reports, proxy statements and other information with the Securities and Exchange Commission ("SEC") Such filings, which you may obtain for free at the SEC's website at http://www.sec.gov, discuss some of the important risk factors that may affect REPAY's business, results of operations and financial condition. Forward-Looking Statements This ...