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ONE Gas(OGS) - 2025 Q3 - Earnings Call Transcript
2025-11-04 17:00
Financial Data and Key Metrics Changes - The company has narrowed its 2025 earnings forecast, now expecting earnings per share to be between $4.34 and $4.40, with net income projected to range between $262 million and $266 million [4][7] - Third quarter net income was $26.5 million, or $0.44 per diluted share, compared to $19.3 million, or $0.34, in the same period last year, reflecting a year-over-year increase [7][8] - Revenues for the third quarter increased by approximately $19.2 million from new rates and $1.4 million from continued customer growth [7] Business Line Data and Key Metrics Changes - Operating and maintenance expenses increased approximately 4.9% year over year, primarily due to higher labor costs and the decision to execute certain activities earlier than planned [8] - The Austin System Reinforcement Project was completed in the third quarter, boosting available winter peak capacity by approximately 25% [5][12] Market Data and Key Metrics Changes - The company serves three states that produce over one-third of U.S. natural gas, with a strong commitment to economic growth and the use of natural gas for residential and commercial applications [4] - The company is actively pursuing growth opportunities in high-growth sectors such as data centers, advanced manufacturing, and utility-scale power generation [4][13] Company Strategy and Development Direction - The company is focused on leveraging growth opportunities while maintaining customer affordability, as demonstrated by the completion of the Austin System Reinforcement Project [5][12] - The company is working on significant utility-scale power generation projects approximating 1.5 gigawatts of capacity across its three states [13][14] - The company aims to provide fast, cost-effective service through existing infrastructure, minimizing capital needs while enhancing system reliability [13][14] Management's Comments on Operating Environment and Future Outlook - Management expressed confidence in the outlook for the rest of the year, citing strong year-to-date performance and the impact of Texas House Bill 4384 [4] - The management noted that the recent Federal Reserve interest rate cuts could positively influence future earnings guidance [20][21] - The company remains committed to providing safe, reliable, and affordable natural gas to its 2.3 million customers [15] Other Important Information - The company plans to settle roughly $200 million of forward shares in December and defer approximately $25 million for year-end 2026 settlement [10] - The board declared a quarterly dividend of $0.67 per share, unchanged from the prior quarter [10] Q&A Session Summary Question: Long-term growth outlook considering legislation and Fed cuts - Management indicated that recent Fed cuts have been earlier than expected and that they anticipate additional cuts in the coming years, which could positively impact earnings guidance [20][21] Question: Clarification on tightening of 2025 guidance range - Management explained that the tightening was due to additional operating and maintenance costs incurred from executing certain activities earlier than planned [22][23] Question: Growth rate above 6% and structural outlook - Management confirmed that the growth rate is structural in nature and expects to be above the high end of the previously outlined range for the duration of the five-year period [32][33] Question: Large load activity and investment opportunities - Management noted that large load projects are being pursued across all three states, leveraging existing systems to respond quickly to customer needs [34][35] Question: Impact of bringing services in-house on O&M costs - Management acknowledged that while there are upfront costs associated with insourcing, the long-term benefits are expected to outweigh these initial investments [39][40] Question: Capital expenditure plans for 2026 - Management indicated an upward trajectory for capital expenditures in 2026, with potential for more punctuated steps up in spending [42][43] Question: Benefits of Texas legislation on capital planning - Management stated that while the Texas legislation provides more opportunities, it will not alter the fundamental approach to capital allocation [55][56] Question: Other opportunities beyond line locating and watch and protect - Management confirmed that they are exploring additional opportunities to bring more services in-house, enhancing capabilities and efficiency [60][61]
Transportadora de Gas del Sur S.A.(TGS) - 2025 Q3 - Earnings Call Transcript
2025-11-04 15:02
Financial Data and Key Metrics Changes - The total net income for Q3 2025 was ARS 112 billion, up from ARS 68.8 billion in Q3 2024, primarily driven by improved performance in the liquids business and midstream segment [6][8] - EBITDA for natural gas transportation decreased to ARS 102.4 billion from nearly ARS 113 billion in Q3 2024, reflecting tariff adjustments that were insufficient to offset inflation impacts [7][8] - EBITDA for the liquids segment tripled to ARS 55.2 billion in Q3 2025, compared to ARS 18.2 billion in Q3 2024, due to increased export volumes and higher prices [8][9] Business Line Data and Key Metrics Changes - The liquids segment saw a significant increase in EBITDA, attributed to higher export volumes rising from 43,000 to 104,000 metric tons and increased ethane sales [9][10] - The midstream and other services segment's EBITDA rose to ARS 61.2 billion from ARS 46.7 billion in Q3 2024, driven by higher sales from increased natural gas volumes transported [11] Market Data and Key Metrics Changes - The average transported natural gas billable volume increased from 29 million cubic meters per day in Q3 2024 to 32 million cubic meters per day in Q3 2025 [11] - The natural gas price increased from $3.1 to $3.4 per million BTU, negatively impacting EBITDA by ARS 4.3 billion [10] Company Strategy and Development Direction - The company plans to invest $560 million to expand the Perito Moreno pipeline's capacity and an additional $220 million for regulated pipelines between Saliceto and Greater Buenos Aires [4][5] - TGS is evaluating participation in a new gas pipeline project to supply gas to LNG facilities planned by CESA Southern Energy [26] Management's Comments on Operating Environment and Future Outlook - Management noted that the current production levels are extraordinary due to the richness of the gas stream from Vaca Muerta, which is expected to remain substantial in the coming years [20] - However, it was indicated that gas production typically decreases in the fourth quarter compared to the third quarter, which may affect overall output [20] Other Important Information - The cash position increased by 22% to ARS 875 billion, approximately $638 million at the official exchange rate [12] - The company recorded a positive variation in financial results amounting to ARS 31.1 billion, mainly due to increased income from financial assets [12] Q&A Session Summary Question: Breakdown of the $780 million capex for the expansion project - The company expects to spend $150 million this year, $450 million in 2026, and the remaining $27 million in the first five months of 2027 [16] Question: Status of the insurance claim for the Complejo Cerri event - The expected recovery amount is over $50 million, with $10 million anticipated this year and the remainder in the following year [18] Question: Sustainability of current production and margins in the liquids segment - Current production levels are extraordinary, but lower gas production is expected in Q4 compared to Q3, which may affect margins [20] Question: Acceleration of cash capex deployment until year-end - Cash capex is expected to be higher than previous levels, with significant spending anticipated in the last quarter [23] Question: Expected income tax payments in the next quarter - Income tax payments in Q4 are expected to be similar to those in Q3 [27] Question: FID for the NGL fractionation facility - The company is working hard on the project, with FID expected in the first quarter of next year [28] Question: Participation in the NGL project with partners - The company aims to have partners in the liquids project, particularly in transportation and fractionation [30] Question: Further midstream segment synergy by 2027 - The company expects to benefit from increased transport capacity in the midstream business due to the expansion [31]
BlackRock's Rick Rieder on why the Fed will cut rates in December
Youtube· 2025-11-03 16:39
Economic Outlook - The economy is perceived to be in good shape, with companies performing well and showing decent revenues, while labor market conditions are more challenging [10][24] - There is a significant displacement in labor expected over the next few years due to technological advancements, particularly in data centers and logistics [4][6] - The current labor market is characterized by low hiring and firing, with companies opting to maintain their existing workforce while evaluating business growth [8][9] Inflation and Interest Rates - Inflation metrics are running higher than desired, with core PCE at approximately 2.5% over six months and other metrics closer to 3% [2][3] - The Federal Reserve is expected to cut interest rates in December, influenced by concerns over the labor market and inflation dynamics [1][16] - The impact of interest rates on capital expenditures (capex) has diminished compared to previous decades, as large companies now fund capex through free cash flow rather than relying on interest rate adjustments [15][19] Corporate Performance and M&A Activity - Companies are experiencing increased productivity through advancements in technology, leading to lower costs and improved earnings [6][7] - The current environment has led to a surge in mergers and acquisitions (M&A), as companies seek to grow and vertically integrate using data and AI [6][7] - There is a notable disparity in economic performance, with high-income sectors thriving while low-income sectors struggle [24] Housing Market - The housing market is facing challenges, with insufficient new home construction despite lower mortgage rates, which have recently dropped to around 6% [12][13] - Increased housing supply could enhance labor mobility and address some inflationary pressures related to shelter costs [13][14] Debt and Fiscal Risks - The level of national debt remains a tail risk, with 90% of U.S. government debt maturing in two years, necessitating continuous refinancing [18][19] - Maintaining nominal GDP growth above the cost of debt is crucial for economic stability and reducing leverage [21][22]
英伟达5万亿美元市值之惑:对冲基金创始人称AI投资的逻辑说不通,当前支出计划要回本需83年
Mei Ri Jing Ji Xin Wen· 2025-11-01 03:27
Core Insights - Nvidia's market capitalization has historically surpassed $5 trillion, making it the first company to achieve this milestone, exceeding the GDP of major economies like Japan and the UK [1][2] - The surge in Nvidia's valuation is driven by increased spending in the AI sector, although the "capital expenditure/operating cash flow" ratio for the "Magnificent Seven" (Mag7) tech giants has significantly increased, indicating a decrease in available cash [1][4] - Harris Kupperman, founder of Praetorian Capital, argues that the financial logic behind AI investments is flawed, as the industry requires $1 trillion in revenue to break even, while current monthly revenues are just over $1 billion, suggesting a payback period of approximately 83 years [1][14] Capital Expenditure Trends - Nvidia's market value rose from $3 trillion to $4 trillion in 410 days and from $4 trillion to $5 trillion in just 113 days, reflecting investor enthusiasm driven by AI [2] - The capital expenditure forecasts for major tech companies for the current fiscal year show significant increases compared to the previous year, with Nvidia projected to spend $34 billion, Apple $144 billion, Microsoft $349 billion, Amazon $1 trillion, Google $910-930 billion, Meta $700-720 billion, and Tesla $90 billion [4][5] - Google has raised its capital expenditure forecast for the second time this year, now expecting between $910 billion and $930 billion, up from an earlier estimate of $750 billion [4] Financial Pressure and Leverage - Despite rising revenues and operating cash flows, the Mag7's capital expenditure relative to operating cash flow has increased to approximately 66.86%, indicating a tightening financial situation [5][9] - The declining proportion of cash in total assets since 2023 has led tech companies to seek external financing options, including equity, bonds, and private credit [9][10] - Meta is reportedly preparing to issue $25 billion in bonds, while also having previously raised $27 billion through private debt for data center construction, indicating a shift from internal funding to external financing [10] Investment Viability Concerns - Kupperman highlights that the market underestimates the revenue needed for AI investments and overestimates asset lifespans, with a projected $400 billion in capital expenditure in 2025 requiring annual revenues of $320 billion to $480 billion to break even [14][16] - The mismatch between monthly expenditures exceeding $30 billion and monthly revenues just over $1 billion raises concerns about the sustainability of current investment levels [14][16] - The financial strain is evident in Microsoft's significant losses related to its investment in OpenAI, which could represent one of the largest quarterly losses in tech history [16]
Investors Digest Mixed Tech Earnings
Youtube· 2025-10-30 20:50
Core Insights - Companies are facing significant pressure to invest in infrastructure to meet rising demand for data capacity, which is expected to double every 9 to 18 months due to aging applications [7][15] - The macroeconomic context, particularly the Federal Reserve's uncertainty regarding interest rate cuts, is impacting market sentiment ahead of earnings reports [2][6] - Over-investing is viewed as less risky than under-investing, as failing to keep up with demand could lead to capacity constraints in the near future [4][9][13] Investment and Spending - Companies are required to spend significantly to keep pace with demand, and they have the free cash flow necessary for these investments [3] - There is a consensus that not investing now could result in severe capacity constraints later, which would be detrimental to investors [4][13] - Recent earnings reports indicate that capital expenditures are rising, reflecting the need for increased investment in infrastructure [12] Market Reactions - The market has shown mixed reactions to earnings reports, influenced by broader economic indicators and the Federal Reserve's stance on interest rates [2][10] - Bond sales for these companies have been robust, indicating investor interest despite higher valuations [9][10] - There is a belief that equities and bonds will move in tandem, providing an alternative exposure to these companies without the volatility associated with equity markets [11] Future Outlook - Companies are expected to continue investing heavily to avoid falling behind in capacity, as demand for computing resources is projected to rise exponentially [15] - The current investment strategies are seen as necessary to ensure that companies do not face significant operational challenges in the future [14]
Lincoln Electric(LECO) - 2025 Q3 - Earnings Call Transcript
2025-10-30 15:02
Financial Data and Key Metrics Changes - Sales increased by 8% to $1,061 million, driven by pricing benefits and resilient demand in certain segments [4][10] - Adjusted EPS performance rose by 15%, with record cash flow generation and a cash conversion rate of 149% [4][10] - Gross profit margin expanded by 90 basis points to 36.7%, with gross profit dollars increasing approximately 11% to $389 million [10] Business Line Data and Key Metrics Changes - Americas Welding sales increased approximately 9%, with a 9.6% price increase and a 1.4% contribution from acquisitions [12][14] - International Welding segment sales increased by 1.6%, with a 4% benefit from acquisitions and 2% favorable foreign exchange translation [15] - Harris Products Group sales increased by 15%, driven by 2% higher volumes and nearly 12% higher prices [16] Market Data and Key Metrics Changes - Organic sales increased by 5.6%, with stabilization in demand for short cycle consumables in the Americas [5][7] - Three of five end markets achieved steady to higher organic sales growth, with notable improvements in construction and agricultural equipment [8] - Automation sales were approximately $200 million, slightly below expectations due to project timing, but expected to increase by 15%-20% sequentially in Q4 [7][10] Company Strategy and Development Direction - The company is in the final quarter of its five-year Higher Standard 2025 strategy, focusing on long-term growth and shareholder returns [9] - Strategic investments and operational agility are aimed at offsetting inflation and volume headwinds [4][9] - The company is optimistic about future growth in capital spending, particularly in the automotive sector, expected to improve in early to mid-2026 [8] Management's Comments on Operating Environment and Future Outlook - Management noted ongoing challenges in capital spending, particularly in the automation portfolio, but expressed optimism about demand recovery [4][8] - The company expects traditional seasonality in sales performance moving into Q4, with modest sequential improvement in operating income margin [17] - Management highlighted a cautious optimism regarding European market recovery, although no immediate order intake was observed [54] Other Important Information - The company generated record cash flows from operations, with a year-to-date increase of approximately 13% [16] - A 5.3% increase in the annual dividend payout rate was announced, marking the 30th consecutive increase [17] - The effective tax rate was reported at 26.1%, primarily due to special item tax expenses [12] Q&A Session Summary Question: Demand trends in construction and infrastructure - Management noted continued strength in the Americas welding segment, with challenges in international markets [24] Question: Automation order rates and margin implications - Management indicated that while automation has higher fixed costs, an uptick in orders is expected to positively impact margins in the future [26][28] Question: Cycle positioning and demand recovery into 2026 - Management expressed cautious optimism about growth, particularly in consumables, but emphasized the need for consistent order activity before predicting a growth pattern [36][44] Question: European volume growth outlook - Management acknowledged encouraging commentary from European governments but remained cautious about actual order intake [54] Question: Volumes expected in Q4 and margin expectations - Management expects traditional seasonality in Q4, with Americas segment margins anticipated to be in the higher end of the 18%-19% range [58][59] Question: Pricing dynamics in the Harris Products Group - Management explained that pricing is largely driven by commodity prices and market adjustments, with expectations for continued pricing strength [67]
OGE Energy (OGE) - 2025 Q3 - Earnings Call Transcript
2025-10-29 14:02
Financial Data and Key Metrics Changes - Consolidated earnings for the third quarter were reported at $1.14 per share, an increase from $1.09 per share in the previous year [3][8] - The electric company achieved net income of $243 million, or $1.20 per diluted share, compared to $225 million, or $1.20 per share last year [8][9] - Consolidated net income was $231 million, reflecting a year-over-year increase driven by capital investment recovery, despite higher operational costs [8][9] Business Line Data and Key Metrics Changes - The electric company’s performance was bolstered by increased recovery of capital investments, while the holding company reported a loss of $12 million, attributed to higher interest expenses [9][10] - Year-over-year customer growth was just under 1%, with weather-normalized load growth at 6.5% through the third quarter [9][10] Market Data and Key Metrics Changes - Oklahoma customers will see a decrease in their monthly bills due to a reduction in the fuel cost adjustment, averaging $6.75 lower per month [5][6] - The company has experienced load growth that surpasses national trends, particularly driven by demand from data centers [5][6] Company Strategy and Development Direction - The company is focused on maintaining low rates to sustain growth and has plans for significant capital projects, including a $250 million transmission line project [10][11] - The company aims to deliver a consolidated earnings growth rate of 5% to 7% based on the midpoint of its 2025 guidance [13][14] Management's Comments on Operating Environment and Future Outlook - Management expressed confidence in delivering results in the top half of the earnings guidance range for 2025, citing strong operational execution and favorable regulatory outcomes [3][8] - The company is optimistic about future growth opportunities, particularly in the data center sector, and is actively negotiating with potential customers [6][66] Other Important Information - The company has updated its capital plan to include new projects aimed at addressing reliability and capacity issues [10][11] - The balance sheet remains strong, providing a competitive advantage in the industry [12] Q&A Session Summary Question: CapEx needs and RFP process acceleration - Management indicated that they anticipate approval for the pre-approval request soon and will layer in additional filings as needed [18][20] Question: Impact of new regulatory constructs on ROE - Management noted that they have a good track record on minimizing ROE lag and will provide guidance for next year in February [21][22] Question: 2025 SPP ITP plan and competitive position - Management acknowledged the robust plan but indicated that further milestones need to be met before providing a firm outlook [31] Question: Data center contract negotiations - Management confirmed that serious negotiations are ongoing and that any agreements would be followed by necessary filings for approval [66] Question: Long-term EPS CAGR outlook - Management expressed confidence in maintaining a solid growth outlook regardless of specific deals, emphasizing a consistent approach to guidance [71]
Royal Caribbean Q3 Earnings Beat Estimates, Revenues Miss, Stock Down
ZACKS· 2025-10-28 18:01
Core Insights - Royal Caribbean Cruises Ltd. (RCL) reported mixed third-quarter 2025 results, with adjusted earnings per share (EPS) of $5.75 beating the Zacks Consensus Estimate of $5.68, while revenues of $5.14 billion missed the estimate of $5.17 billion, although both metrics increased year-over-year [1][3][7] Financial Performance - Adjusted EPS for Q3 2025 was $5.75, up from $5.20 in the prior-year quarter, while revenues increased by 5.2% year-over-year from $4.88 billion [3][7] - Passenger ticket revenues reached $3.64 billion, up from $3.47 billion year-over-year, and onboard and other revenues increased to $1.5 billion from $1.41 billion [4] - Total cruise operating expenses were $2.48 billion, a 3.7% increase year-over-year, with net yields rising 2.4% on a constant currency basis [5] Capital and Debt Management - As of September 30, 2025, cash and cash equivalents were $432 million, an increase from $388 million at the end of 2024, while long-term debt decreased to $17.2 billion from $18.47 billion [6] Booking Trends - RCL is experiencing strong booking momentum, with load factors for 2025 and 2026 at record levels, and accelerated bookings for both new and existing ships [7][9] - The company noted robust demand for upcoming launches, including Star of the Seas and Celebrity Xcel, with early demand for Royal Beach Club Paradise Island also strong [9] Q4 and 2025 Outlook - For Q4 2025, RCL expects adjusted EPS to be in the range of $2.74-$2.79, with net yields projected to increase by 2.6-3.1% on a reported basis [10][11] - For the full year 2025, adjusted EPS is anticipated to be between $15.58 and $15.63, an increase from previous expectations, with net yields expected to rise by 3.5-4% [12]
Tenet Health(THC) - 2025 Q3 - Earnings Call Transcript
2025-10-28 15:32
Financial Data and Key Metrics Changes - In Q3 2025, the company reported net operating revenues of $5.3 billion, with consolidated adjusted EBITDA growing 12% year-over-year to $1.1 billion, resulting in an adjusted EBITDA margin of 20.8%, a 170 basis points improvement from the previous year [5][11] - The company raised its full-year 2025 adjusted EBITDA guidance to a range of $4.47 billion to $4.57 billion, reflecting an increase of $445 million or 11% at the midpoint from initial guidance [7][15] - Free cash flow for Q3 was $778 million, totaling $2.16 billion year-to-date, which is a 22% increase over the same period last year [14] Business Line Data and Key Metrics Changes - The USPI segment generated $492 million in adjusted EBITDA, representing a 12% year-over-year growth, with same-facility revenues increasing by 8.3% [5][11] - The hospital segment's adjusted EBITDA grew 13% to $607 million, with same-store hospital admissions up 1.4% and revenue per adjusted admission increasing by 5.9% [6][12] Market Data and Key Metrics Changes - The company opened a new hospital facility in Port St. Lucie, Florida, aimed at expanding capacity in a rapidly growing area [6] - Exchange business accounted for 8.4% of total admissions and 7% of total consolidated revenues in Q3, showing a slight increase from Q2 [24][77] Company Strategy and Development Direction - The company is focusing on higher acuity services, which has led to improved margins and strong earnings growth [9] - The strategy includes continued M&A and de novo development, with a robust pipeline for future acquisitions [6][9] Management's Comments on Operating Environment and Future Outlook - Management expressed confidence in the business's performance, citing healthy patient demand and stable operating conditions for 2026 [8][9] - There is uncertainty regarding enhanced premium tax subsidies and their impact on reimbursement and enrollment in exchanges, but management is prepared for various scenarios [8][9] Other Important Information - The company has invested nearly $300 million in M&A activities year-to-date and plans to continue this trend [6] - The company has no significant debt maturities until 2027, providing financial flexibility [14] Q&A Session Summary Question: Q4 guidance and utilization expectations - Management has not built in expectations for higher utilization due to exchange subsidies expiring, and they are confident in their capacity to meet typical demand [19][21] Question: CapEx inputs and allocation - The increase in CapEx is focused on clinical program infrastructure and high-acuity service offerings, with specific investments in cardiac care and surgical programs [26][28] Question: Free cash flow sustainability - Management highlighted improved cash collections and operational efficiencies as key drivers of free cash flow, emphasizing a focus on sustainability [30][32] Question: USPI Q4 guidance and growth - The implied Q4 guidance for USPI suggests year-over-year growth of over 8%, which is consistent with historical trends [35][36] Question: Labor environment and inflationary pressures - The labor environment remains strong, and management does not foresee significant changes or inflationary pressures impacting operations in 2026 [39][41] Question: Conifer's contribution and enrollment capabilities - Conifer is performing well, assisting with patient eligibility and enrollment, and is prepared to support potential changes in exchange enrollment timelines [45][47] Question: Service line performance in Q3 - Growth in USPI was driven by higher acuity services, with a noted recovery in GI services, while respiratory and infectious disease volumes were lower than expected [51][53] Question: DPP contribution and estimates for 2026 - The company recorded approximately $346 million in supplemental Medicaid programs in Q3, with $148 million being prior year adjustments [59][60] Question: Capital allocation and buyback strategy - The company remains active in share repurchases and is responsive to market conditions while continuing to pursue M&A opportunities [62][64] Question: Expense management and AI initiatives - The company is exploring opportunities for cost savings and efficiency improvements, including the use of advanced analytics and automation [66][68] Question: M&A environment for ASCs - The company continues to be a partner of choice in the ASC market, focusing on high-end specialties and maintaining a strong pipeline for growth [71][73]
How earnings and a potential US-China trade deal are driving markets
Youtube· 2025-10-27 17:56
Core Insights - Corporate profits are stable, with S&P 500 net profit margins above the 5-year average for six consecutive quarters, and analysts expect this trend to continue into next year [1][3] Earnings Performance - The earnings season has been solid, particularly for financials and money center banks, driven by trading and investment banking [3] - Industrial companies are reporting strong earnings, supported by demand for AI infrastructure [3] - Tech earnings are anticipated to be a significant market driver this week, with high expectations set [4][5] Market Reactions - Recent earnings reports, such as those from GE Vernova, showed volatility, with stocks initially gapping up but then selling off sharply before stabilizing [8] - Market positioning and options trading are influencing stock movements at both individual and index levels [8] Economic Indicators - There are shifting expectations regarding China and potential Federal Reserve rate cuts, which could impact market dynamics [4][10] - The removal of trade-related overhangs is allowing markets to focus on earnings rather than trade headlines [11][12] Consumer Behavior - The economy is holding up well, with a K-shaped recovery observed; higher-income consumers are faring better than lower-income consumers, who are struggling with inflation [16] - There is caution in hiring, but mass layoffs are not being reported [16] Federal Reserve Outlook - A 25 basis point rate cut is largely expected, with discussions around the end of quantitative tightening (QT) gaining traction [17][18] - Markets are pricing in further rate cuts, with expectations for a third cut in January being slightly better than a coin flip [20]